Marine Ich and Water Change Questions

[haras2the3]

i have a question about marine Ich. one of my clownfish has a little almost white gunk on the base of its fin. It is also visible that little black dots are on the fish. Is this Ich? I am going to get my water tested tomorrow so maybe there is something wrong with the water? I don't have a quarantine tank but the store that supplies me with my fish quarantines them for me and they were doing great for about 2-3 weeks now. I haven't done any water changes because i like to change 25% of the water every month b/c this is less stressfull to the fish (in my opinion). Do i need more frequent changes or what do I have to do? Both fish have been acting normal and besides the few spots on the one fish their coloration is normal, they r swimming arounf, they look happy and are eating well which is why I don't know if this is a case of Ich. Please help me indentify this disease/ problem!

[leebca]

I moved your post because I think it deserves its own thread.

Taking your questions in order. . .
Marine Ich isn't too difficult to identify. However, not every white spot is Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). If you can post a closeup photo where the fish fills the picture frame, we may be able to better see what it is you're looking at.

The 'white gunk' could be mucous coating coming off the fish. Anemonefish have a particularly thick and abundant mucous coating. They shed this coating in times of stress (water quality, environment, poor nutrition, etc.), illness, and disease.

The black spots could be symptomatic of another kind of condition that is commonly referred to as Black Ich. A photo would help us help you and the fish best.

This is a photo of a fish with Black Ich: DisPic Summary

Unless I truly understand how and know the procedure of your LFS quarantine process, I will have to say I doubt they do a proper quarantine. Have you read these two yet? One is a good article, another is a step by step procedure for a proper quarantine process:
An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure: A Quarantine Tank for Everything by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

A Fish Quarantine Process. If your LFS is following this procedure, then I'd say the fish were properly quarantined.

Put another way. . .IF the LFS was doing a proper quarantine job, then your fish really isn't sick, is it?

A water change of any size should not be stressful to the fish IF it is done properly. Here are some good recommendations for a proper water change: http://www.reefland.com/forum/saltwa...tml#post159585

The value of a small but more frequent water change is keeping the water quality fairly constant. A large less frequent water change will help remove large build-up of wastes and nutrients. Either is okay. But if the water is of questionable quality, a large water change is a must.

You may be interested in learning more about water quality that the test kits you use don't show: What is Water Quality

Ask if you have other questions. Post a photo or two or three of your fish, if you can. However, I hope you'll do a lot of reading to delve into matters.

[haras2the3]

hi, thank you so much for the advice! I am going to post some pictures soon...if i can figure out how to work my computer.... Anyways, the picture that u sent me on the site Error Occurred While Processing Request=. Little black dots are visible on the upper side of the fish which look just like the dots on my clown. I read the quarantine process and my fish store has all the equipment mentioned (they test my water before I get anything) and all their tanks meet the requirements which kept me wondering but they only quarantine the fish for about one week, which I know isn't long enough, whcih is probably how my fish got sick should i bring the fish back to the store to treat them b/c i don't have a QT and i doubt my parents will let me get another tank! Although, i haven't had my water tested for about two weeks now, as I haven't been to the fish store...could the white thing on the fish just be b/c of problems with the water? I am going to get my water tested 2morrow so I will find out if the water quality is ok and maybe bring back my clown. Hopefully, that will fix the problem. As of now, the fish are active and still hungry as they r little pigs so I think I will be fine for a few more days. Thanks for all the info and advice!!!!

[leebca]

You are welcome to all the help we can provide. It is why we are here!

Your situation isn't very good, I know. In the interest of the fish, returning it to the store is a good idea if they are truly going to treat the fish. I think they will most likely not treat the fish. The treatment is time consuming and it would be much less expensive for them to euthanasia the fish. Even though you paid $$ for the fish, they paid about $2. + shipping.

The disease is in your aquarium, so all fish will be infected even if you don't or can't see them being sick. So removing one fish is not getting rid of the disease.

You are correct about their quarantine process. It is not possible to even call one week a quarantine. They are mis-representing what they are actually doing.

Lastly, you probably don't want to hear this, but. . .You don't have the equipment nor performing the best process, to maintain and keep a saltwater aquarium.

Examples: As a minimum, you figure you need a quarantine tank. Then, you need the appropriate test kits at home. Then, you need to test the water very often in the beginning.

Maybe you can save up your money and when you have enough money to do it better, then start a salt water aquarium again. I'd like you to read this post and see how different it is than what is going on with your aquarium setupr:
http://www.reefland.com/forum/saltwa...-aquarium.html

You'll see there is a very big difference between the recommendations in the above link and how the setup in your care is going.

Keep in mind that it is the goal of your local fish store (LFS) to sell and make a profit. They encourage people to start up marine aquariums and make it sound easy and simple and as inexpensive as they can. Once they sell the equipment to you, the only thing they can sell you is salt and marine life. So if you continue to have problems with the marine life (which I think you will, based on all of the above I've written) they will just keep selling you marine life and continue to make their profit. Be cautious and skeptical about taking their advice.

The way to break this cycle is to do it as recommended in the above link, going slowly and having all the things you need on hand to do a proper job.

Good luck!

[haras2the3]

There is no way that I can help my fish? I have corals and everything, what am I supposed to do with them? Is there any possible way that I can get a 30 gallon tank and treat my fish for Ich? I know there is treatment for Ich, is there any specific treatment I can use if I get a QT? I asked my parents and they said it was fine if I got a QT. Is it too late to treat them? I REALLY don't want to get rid of all the things in my tank...I put a lot of work into it! Can you help me save my tank at all?

[leebca]

You can perform a treatment, but the problem is that all the fish have to be treated. That is, all fish need to be removed from the aquarium into a QT. Will the 30 be large enough?

You'll see to setup the quarantine tank like this: A Fish Quarantine Process

For Black Ich, you'll need to perform a very complex and delicate treatment on all the fish. The treatment is to perform multiple baths in water that contains Formaldehyde gas (dangerous to fish). You start by getting some Formalin. Then. . .

You'll need an aerator (air pump and air stone), a hand-held pH meter (about $50), a separate treatment container for the baths (that's right, a third container!), and to study the procedure and perform it correctly as described here: Formaldehyde: Friend or Foe - Treating Saltwater Fish Diseases

The above is the most successful at treating this condition. There is another treatment and that is to give the fish a freshwater bath, repeated every 3 days, for a total of 5 baths. It is easier to perform but has not been as successful at curing the disease.

After treatment, the fish still can't go back into the display tank. It takes about 10 weeks for Black Ich to die off in the display tank without a host (without a fish).

This is assuming your fish have Black Ich? Are you sure of the diagnosis? Are you sure you want to go through this?

We're here to help, but a lot will depend upon you and your ability to understand what is written and your ability to follow the written instructions without taking shortcuts or being 'creative.'

[haras2the3]

As of right now, I think I am going to give the fish freshwater dips. And do you mean I should give them one bath then wait 3 days then give them another bath, in a total of 5 baths? Both fish are in a QT but what should I do with my corals? They are currently in the display tank but can they be affected by Balck Ich? And just being curious, what is the difference between Back Ich and normal marine Ich and what are the difference in their treatments? Will 30 gallons for 2 clownfish be big enough? Also, you said that it takes 8 weeks for the Ich to die in the display tank...how dooes it live in the tank with out a host and how do I know it has died? Will frequent water changes help get rid of the Ich faster? I know I have a lot of questions but I am trying to get as much knowledge to prevent my fish from dying!

[leebca]

There is no problem with asking questions. That's why we're here!

Perform the freshwater bath according to these instructions: Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes, EXCEPT put the fish in the bath for only 10 minutes. You will do a total of 5 such baths, each to be done 3 days apart. Use new FW bath for each bath. Prepare the water carefully as instructed.

Both fishes should be put into the bath at approximately the same time IF you are following the above instructions.

Non-fish are not affected by Black Ich. You don't have to worry about corals and invertebrates left in your display tank, being hosts to this disease.

Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) is caused by a ciliated protozoan. Black Ich is cause by one of several different parasitic flatworms (Phylum Platyhelminthes) belonging to the class Turbellaria. The black you see is actually fish blood that the worm has caused to hemorrhage. You can't see the worm with the unaided eye.

Their different treatments are Formalin or FW dips for Black Ich and those treatments listed here for Marine Ich: Marine Ich - Myths and Facts.

30 gallons for the two fish. . .Is that your QT? If that is the question, it is okay. You'll need another container for the FW baths.

The flatworms go through a series of stages in their life cycle. It takes about 8-10 weeks to through that cycle WITH the fish present. I wrote that the fishless time should be 10 weeks not 8 weeks! How do you know it has died? It is because this is what we know of these flatworms' life cycle.

Water changes will not get rid of the flatworms nor get rid of them any faster. They attach to things and if your tank has a substrate, they are in there, too.

If I missed any of your questions or if you have more, just post!

If you plan to stay with this hobby, I suggest you go to this link and read about things you should know. This link goes to a post listing other links of various subjects you should and need to know about to be a successful marine aquarist: Table/Contents - Link List.

Other information for you. . .You didn't mention the kind of Anemonefish you are keeping. However if they are the kind that remain small as adults, the fish need at least a 40 gallon aquarium if you want to keep a pair, and if they are larger kinds of Anemonefish, they will need a larger aquarium. You may be keeping the fish you have in an aquarium that is too small.

Good luck! ;)

[haras2the3]

thank you for the advice. I have two True Percula Clownfish and I have a 60 gallon tank. I think that sould be big enough? As for now, they are in a 30 gallon QT and seem to be doing fine. The eyes are not glazed, they are swimming around the whole tank and have a great appetite. I hope that i can stay with the hobby but your advice has helped A LOT! I am looking forward to using this site for future advice!

THANKS!!!

[leebca]

I'm happy to say that the aquarium size for those two Anemonefish is very good!

[haras2the3]

thank you! i am happy that is one thing i am doing right . I have another question also. I know that you have to run a tank through the nitrogen cycle....but do you have to run your QT through this cycle? I know it is not recommended to put anything in your QT (ie: live rock) so how would you cycle this tank?

[leebca]

The bacteria that perform nitrification are just looking for a surface area.

The QT should be equipped with a corner sponge filter. This filter is the place where the bacteria 'bunch up' and perform nitrification for the QT. This is part of the QT equipment outlined here: A Fish Quarantine Process

Usually, the aquarist keeps the sponge filter 'active' by leaving it in the sump of the main marine system, then when needed, puts it into the QT and this provides the QT with 'instant' biological filtration. However, if the QT and sponge are new, the QT can still be put into immediate operation/use. As noted in the above reference, the aquarist can use chemical filtration and/or large water changes to control the nitrogen wastes.

[haras2the3]

where can i get this type of sponge?

[leebca]

A filter sponge, running on an air supply (diaphragm air pump) can be obtained from many LFSs, and some of the sponsors of Reefland. You can Google for it or check for it at your local fish store (LFS).

[haras2the3]

thank you!!